Posts by Disillusioned JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffo, thanks for informing me that the WT's idea that the Jews were especially expecting a Messiah around 30 CE or that it was because of anything in Daniel comes from a Christian tradition. Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Clarification to a recent earlier post. Regarding Furuli, I said that "... (while he was an elder at the time) he published a book which criticized the Governing Body of the JW." While the book appears to have been published then, Furuli didn't allow the book to be released to the public until after he became disfellowshipped. It seems that his book received some promotional publicity before a copy of the book was offered to the GB, before the book was released to the public. For example, see https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/05/26/in-new-book-a-prominent-jehovahs-witness-trashes-the-faiths-governing-body/ . That article came out in May 2020 (after the book had been published but before it had been released) and it appears Furuli was disfellowshipped in the following month.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Jeffro, I wasn't just indicating that I had a hard time finding religious Jewish commentaries on the book of Daniel. t was saying that I had a hard time finding religious Jewish commentaries on the Hebrew Bible, or on any sections of it.

When I go to the books section of thrift stores (Including the large bins of books often found at the local Goodwill Outlet stores) I find far more Christian religious books than Jewish religious books. Furthermore, most of the Jewish religious books I find (other than Jewish OT Bibles and prayer books) are about religious rituals, rather than books teaching theological doctrine or explanation, explaining verses in the OT, or explaining Bible prophecy. Years ago in a thrift store I found a few Jewish OT Scriptures commentaries in English at a thrift store. I think there are some Jewish OT Scripture commentaries in a local large book store, and perhaps I will go there to read such books there. But for now I prefer to find and read some (in English, not in Hebrew) online, but so far I found virtually none online.

The WT has written that about the year 30 C.E. a number of Jews were expecting the arrival of the Jewish Messiah, and that such expectations were based upon their calculations of the 70 weeks prophecy in the book of Daniel. [Is that a false teaching of the WT or were Jews back then really doing such?] If some of the ancient Jews were doing such, then that shows that a number of early first century Jews considered the book of Daniel to be prophetic - even though the book was classified in the Writings or would later be classified in the Writings. I have long thought (and even still think it is likely) that the WT is correct in saying that a number of very early first century C.E. Jews made calculations of the 70 weeks prophecy, and that as a result of doing such they were anticipating the arrival of the Messiah around the year 30 C.E.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html is an interesting news article which is related to the above. The title of the article is "Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection". It says in part the following.

'Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai.

... Mr. Knohl contends that the stone’s writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days.

He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of King David.

“This should shake our basic view of Christianity,” he said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. “Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.” '

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https://jwtalk.net/topic/32011-rolf-furuli-new-book/ gives a summary of Rolf Furuli's book called When Was The Book Of Daniel Written? In part it says the following.

"6. Antiochus IV Epiphanes All the verses in chapters 7, 8, and 11 in Daniel that are believed to describe the history of Antiochus are discussed in detail. It is shown that modern Bible translators manipulate their translation of some verses, so they fit the history of Antiochus. It is also shown that the few sources that describe the actions of Antiochus are contradictory, and these sources are to some extent manipulated as well. The conclusion of the chapter, contrary to the almost universal agreement, is that Antiochus is not referred to anywhere in the Book of Daniel.

... The setting of the the book of Daniel is God's kingdom, and not the actions of Antiochus."

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

In the article on his web site he also says the following 'During the last part of the 20th century and particularly in the 21st century, the GB has made a great number of laws and rules that are not based on the Bible. For example, 32 of the 43 disfellowshipping offenses that are mentioned in the book for elders, “Shepherd the flock of God” have no Bible basis. ... Jehovah God has taught me through his organization to show courage and never shrink back when I see something that is wrong in the organization, also in situations that will harm me if I speak up. The position of the members of the GB and a great number of their decisions violate the Bible. Because of this, I wrote the book My Beloved Religion—And The Governing Body. ... Everyone who is not obedient to the GB will be disfellowshipped, and in June of 2020, I was disfellowshipped. The members of the judicial committee had not seen or read my book, so their decision was made on hearsay, which even is contrary to the rules of the GB.'

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Thanks scholar for mentioning "former Witness Semitic scholar, Rolf Furuli in his When Was The Book Of Daniel Written? A Philological, Linguistic, And Historical Approach". I am trying to find online information about the book. I found some information about the author and discovered that in 2020 (while he was an elder at the time) he published a book which criticized the Governing Body of the JW. He was disfellowshipped by the GB after he offered his book to them for them to read and implement the urged changes mentioned in his book. He didn't publish the book until after the GB rejected the idea of changing their ways and until after the GB disfellowshipped him. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/hfrzc3/rolf_furuli_publishes_a_written_statement_to/ has an interesting post about this, called "Rolf Furuli publishes a written statement to Norwegian newspaper." In part, that post says the following.

"As an elder, I am trained to do something about things I see in the congregation that are contrary to the Bible. Now I have uncovered many things at the top of the organization that are contrary to the Bible. When I try to do something about this, I have a good conscience. And a good conscience can withstand all kinds of pressure. After publishing, I have received hundreds of emails - many from men who have recently renounced the assignment as elders, because for their conscience they can no longer represent GB, and from elders who are deeply concerned about the development of the organization. I will keep in touch with these."

See also Furuli's web page at https://mybelovedreligion.no/about/ ("My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"). It says in part the following.

'The first Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses (GB) was instituted in 1971, and the arrangement of a body of elders in each congregation was instituted in 1972. The bodies of elders were, to a great degree, independent of the GB, and they made their own decisions to the best of the congregation members. After some time, some of the power of the bodies of elders were transferred to the GB, and this was completed in the 21st century. In this way, the organization got their “bishops” and their “clergy.”

Today, the GB functions as a government for JW. The members of the GB have all power over the doctrines, the assets, and the money. The GB demands absolute obedience, and those who are not obedient to their rules and decisions are disfellowshipped. Today, the organization is autocratic, and its structure resembles the structure of the Catholic Church.'

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

scholar, why do you think the book of Daniel says "seal up the book" of Daniel? If you think the book was sealed, when do you think it became unsealed? Do you think it was unsealed in the 2nd century B.C.E.? Do you think it was sealed centuries earlier than the 2nd century B.C.E.? In contrast, why do you think the book of Revelation says "do not seal up" the book of Revelation? What are your reasons?

Do you think the references in the two books about "seal up" or "do not seal up" (as the case may be) provide clues as when the two books were written?

When do you think chapters 3-14 of the book of 2nd Esdras (the book that is referred to at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras ) were written, and do you think the biblical Ezra wrote them? [Esdras is a Greco-Latin variation of the Hebrew name 'Ezra'.] What are your reasons?

Why do you believe that Porphyry having been a critic of Christianity invalidates
Porphyry and his criticism of the the Book of Daniel? Why couldn't his criticism of the book of Daniel be correct, despite his criticism of Christianity? Do you believe that the WT's criticism of the Catholic church and of Christendom invalidates the WT and its criticism of the books which Protestants call Apocryphal but which the Roman Catholic Church calls parts of the Bible (such as the books of Tobit, Judith, and Ecclesiasticus [the latter is also called the Book of Sirach])? What are you reasons?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my prior post where I said "If I had believed in God or some other spirit and I had asked the spirit to show it self to me and to speak to me I probably would have had a vision (or audio-only hallucination) of the seemingly the spirit speaking to me", I meant to say the following. "If I had believed in God or some other spirit and if I had asked the spirit to show it self to me and to speak to me, then I probably would have had a vision (or audio-only hallucination) seemingly of the spirit speaking to me."

In a recent prior post when I wrote "Yes Daniel was written ... before Rome conquered the Seleucid empire" that was in error, for I wrote it before I later learned that Rome had conquered the Seleucid kingdom prior to 180 B.C.E. I thus should have wrote the following instead. "Yes Daniel was written before the time period that Rome became an empire and before Rome conquered the Hellenistic empire and/or the Greeks."

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Revision: I ran out of time in revising my prior post. The paragraph about me having had a vision should say the following.

"I even think it is possible that the biblical prophets might have used a meditative practice which enhanced the power of their subconscious mind to detect patterns in known past world (and local) events, and then present conclusions based upon such to their conscious mind - even in the form of mental visions with mental audio. Because I think such might be possible I have even tried do such myself.

On one occasion I even managed to to induce myself to have a vivid vision (as if watching a TV broadcast without a TV) while I was fully awake (siting upright without a support for my back)! It was the result of an effort to see and hear what the leader of the PLO would soon announce at the UN. In the visions I saw what looked like him at the UN. [Hours before the experiment on the internet I watched prior TV videos of him giving a speech at the UN]. What the vision of him said in my vision (as best as I could remember the speech) didn't come true, but it showed me it is possible to develop the ability to see visions (and hear in my mind along with the vision) of the kind which are attributed to prophets. Maybe with practice I could come to have some accurate visions. The following morning while lying in bed (whether I had already woken up by the time or whether I was having an audio only dream at the time I don't know), I heard a very loud voice call out my name - though I was the only person in my home at the time. the voice sounded like it came from outside my mind. I know it must have been from my mind (I'm a scientific naturalist) instead of being something supernatural, but it sounded external to me. That is the only time in my life such has happened. The experience scared me. Note, the prior day (before having the vision) I said to myself "show me and tell me the future". However I stopped the experiments for fear that the process might rewire my brain to the point where become crazy (including seeing the visions and hearing voices uncontrollably. That was scary to m, so I told myself to "end the program" that was in my mind. For several days following those experiences I seemingly woke up to the sound of my alarm clock going off, but when I would check the alarm clock I noticed it was not going off. I deduced that I had an audio-only dream of my alarm clock going off and that the experience then woke me up. That was annoying to me and scary to me. I continued to tell myself to "end the program" that was in my mind and the problem stopped several days after it started.

If I had believed in God or some other spirit and I had asked the spirit to show it self to me and to speak to me I probably would have had a vision (or audio-only hallucination) of the seemingly the spirit speaking to me. I think the biblical prophets had such experiences. The Bible says YHWH God spoke to them in dreams and in visions.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Jeffrey I noticed you said the following. "Actually, he’s quite incorrect. Porphyry is a known early source for considering interpretations of Daniel by Christians, but not ‘the first person to introduce the idea’. Obviously the original author of the work knew when the work was first written, along with any number of other Jewish sources that may now be lost." I reply to that I say the following.

I realize that someone before Porphyry might have said that f'irst person to introduce the idea that Daniel was not a work of the 6th century but was written much later in the time of the Seleucids in the 2nd century', but Porphyry is the earliest known person to mention that claim.. I didn't think I needed to meticulously specifically say in my post that in known extant manuscripts he is the earliest known example of someone making that claim. Or are you saying that there is an extant document which identifies someone else as making the claim before him? The writer of Daniel while knowing his/her writing was written in the 2nd BC.E. did not make the claim (as far as anyone today knows) that his story was written in the 2nd century B.C.E.

It is like when history books say a particular person made a particular scientific discovery. They mean our knowledge the said person was the first, even though obviously someone else might have been first without there being a know extant record mentioning someone else.

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You also said the following. "... it is an established fact that Daniel was definitely written prior to the Roman period, and there is no basis for deferring to magical thinking." In reply to it I say the following.

Yes Daniel was written before the time period that Rome became an empire and before Rome conquered the Seleucid empire and/or the Greek empire. But the Roman kingdom was in existence prior to 180 B.C.E. Not only that, but Rome defeated Antiochus III the Great (the Seleucid king) in the Roman–Seleucid War of 192 B.C.E. – 188 B.C.E. Furthermore, Antiochus III was the father of
Antiochus IV Epiphanes! [See and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman%E2%80%93Seleucid_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_III_the_Great ].

The latter web page mentioned above about the war says the following. "The fighting ended with a clear Roman victory. In the Treaty of Apamea the Seleucids were forced to give up Asia Minor, which fell to Roman allies. As a main result of the war the Roman Republic gained hegemony over Greek city states and Asia Minor, and became the only remaining major power around the Mediterranean Sea." it would thus have been humanly possible, by purely naturalistic means, for someone (such as the writer(s) of the book of Daniel), using a knowledge of history, to have have correctly deduced/predicted that Rome would eventually also conquer the Ptolemaic Kingdom, - and become an empire. No magical thinking would would been required, though a favorable element of random chance might would have been required.

Likewise I believe that some of the prophets in the OT Bible, using knowledge of history, could have made some correct predictions pertaining to military conquests. I also believe that some of the apparent predictions in the OT Bible by various so-called prophets were those kinds of predictions. Especially when one considers that the Bible says there were a great many of people in biblical times who claimed to be prophets and who made predictions, it is thus feasible that some of the predictions by some people came true. A number of the prophetic books of Bible (books which are claimed by the Bible to be inspired) focuses on those of people who made predictions which came true. Those who were deemed false prophets were excluded from having books of the Bible named after them. The compilers of the Bible chose those books that they thought were inspired of God, but which in fact were the product of human reasoning (and perhaps some element of chance in their favor).

I even think that the prediction (recorded in Mark, Matthew, and Luke) attributed to Jesus saying that Jerusalem (and its temple) would be destroyed, could have actually been made my Jesus (using purely naturalistic means of deducing what would happen).

I even think it is possible that the biblical prophets might have used a meditative practice which enhanced the power of their subconscious mind to detect patterns world events, and then present the conclusions to heir conscious mind - even in visions. Because I think such might be possible I have even tried do such myself. On one occasion I even managed to to induce myself to have a vivid vision (as if watching a TV broadcast) while I was fully awake! It was the result of an effort to see and hear what the leader of the PLO would announce at the UN. In the visions I saw what looked like him at the UN. Why he said in my vision (as best as I could remember it) didn't come true, but it showed me it is possible to develop the ability to see visions of the kind which are attributed to prophets. Maybe with practice I could come to have some accurate visions. The following morning while lying in bed (whether I had already woken up by the time or whether I was dreaming at the time I don't know), I heard a voice call out my name - though I was the only person in my home at the time. the voice sounded like it came from outside my mind. I known it must have been from my mind (I'm a scientific naturalist), but it sounded external to me. The experience scared me. Note, the prior night I said to myself "time me me the future" (before having the vision). However I stopped the experiments for fear that the process might rewire my brain to the point where become crazy (including seeing the visions and hearing voices uncontrollably.

------------------

You also said "But it remains the case that only two verses of Daniel actually refer to a future kingdom of God." My reply is the following.

Even if only two verses in Daniel specifically say they are about a future kingdom of God, that doesn't mean the story they are about isn't also about a proclaimed future kingdom of God. The two verses are a conclusion to one of more visions in the book. They reveal what the theme was of one or more visions in the book, and very possibly even for the book as a whole. The succession of kingdoms represented by an image made of metals and clay (with the latter kingdoms being described as inferior to the prior ones) leads up to the climatic claim of those kingdoms being removed from existence by the kingdom of God. I am not saying that the book of Daniel says that such kingdom is of the Christian sense (with Jesus Christ as king), nor am I am saying such a kingdom will come. [I am an atheist after all.] Obviously the book was written by a Jewish non-Christian, but one with hopes for an anointed one of God to rule in Jerusalem as the representative of God.

I think there were many Jews in the latter 2nd century B.C.E. and in later times who thought that at least one of the visions in the book of Daniel had the theme that YHWH God would eventually bring a kingdom which would conqueror gentile empires and kingdoms and rule the earth (likely with the headquarters in Jerusalem). I tried to see if there were Jewish commentaries which say such, but Jewish commentaries are far less numerous in the USA than Christian commentaries are. I haven't found more than a few religious Jewish commentaries of the Hebrew Scriptures (even of texts which can be read online in English).

18

Are JWs preaching Paul's Gospel or something beyond Paul's Gospel?

by Vanderhoven7 in

paul's gospel: .

now, brothers and sisters, i want to remind you of the gospel i preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

2 by this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word i preached to you.

Disillusioned JW

Atheistic naturalists know the truth - The Great Truth ('Great' in the sense of extent). They know (at least well beyond a reasonable doubt) there is no god/God at all (including no goddess/Goddess at all), no angels at all, no demons at all, no spirit beings at all, and no afterlife at all for humans. That knowledge refutes the core claims of all of the religions which teach the existence of the supernatural.

Get out of religion you people who love truth and seek truths, and accept the truth(s) of atheistic naturalism. Free yourselves from bondage to religion and from the superstitions of religion. Accept the wholesome truthful good news of atheistic scientific naturalism into your figurative hearts, as well as into your intellect.